This is the second time I have interviewed Michael Chou. He was my first interviewee when I took over as editor of The Chopmark News in 2011. I interviewed him in his shop in Taipei, Taiwan.
 CG - Colin Gullberg |
 MC - Michael Chou |
CG: Hello Michael. It's good to see you again. I wanted to interview you again since it's been eleven years since our last interview and you have done a lot since then.
MC: Yes, it's good to talk to The Chopmark News again. As you know I've always been a strong supporter of the CCC, the newsletter and the study of chopmarks. Remember, I funded your book.
CG: Yes, thank you very much for the help over the years. You're the #2 guy in chopmarks after Rose.
MC: And you're #3. Are you going to update your book? It has been sold out for several years.
CG: Yes. It's been selling for over $100 on eBay and yes I have been planning an update of the book. It's a longterm plan but maybe for 2025.
Anyway, let start with your publications. In addition to The Journal of East Asian Numismatics [JEAN], you've done a wide variety of books over the past decade making you perhaps as well-known as a publisher as a dealer. Why did you restart JEAN?
MC: I wanted to promote cross cultural information between East and West. JEAN is published in both Chinese and English as lots of Chinese collectors don't have access to Western sources due to language barriers and few Westerns read Chinese. There is a lot of new research into Chinese numismatics, and I want to be in the forefront of this new information. Like The Chopmark News I'm always looking for material, articles and writers and JEAN is free for readers. Just email me and I'll add you to the mailing list. We have been running your entire Chopmarked Coins - A History book in JEAN chapter by chapter. [Interested readers can subscribe to JEAN for free either here email: jeanzg@163.com or here: https://issuu.com/jeandigitala1/docs/the_twentyfifth_issue_of_jean ]
CG: I should tell readers The Chopmark News is planning a collaboration with JEAN. We will be submitting very small articles for publication in JEAN. What other plans do you have for JEAN?
MC: Well, we're working on establishing a website and there will be a place where The Chopmark News will be hosted. It should be ready by the summer. We've also been working Dr. Tseng to translate some of his articles on chopmarked Taiwanese coinage for the newsletter and JEAN.
CG:Sounds good. Let's talk about chopmarked coins. I've gone over your old catalogues and you seem to have handled three collections that had notable chopmarked coins; the Italia collection, the NC collection, and the Bowker collection. Two of the collectors, Nelson Chang and Howard Bowker, you wrote books on. Let's first talk about the Italia collection as it was the smallest of the three.
MC: The Italia collection was put together by a New York/Florida collector who was of Italian ancestry in the 1970s and 80s. The collection was purchased by Steve Eyer a Mt. Zion, Illinois dealer. The collection was subsequently sold to another dealer, Lance Tchor of Tampa, Florida. The collection had a number of nice chopmarked coins, largely Mexican Cap & Rays 8 reales in high grade.
CG: Yes, I bought a few of them.
MC: Both Steve Eyer and the original collector have passed away, but Lance Tchor is still around.
CG: Let's talk about the NC collection. You published a book on the NC collection, A Legacy of Collection - The NC Collection of Chinese Coins and have been selling off the collection. Tell me about that project.
MC: Nelson Chang [Zhāng Nán-chēn, 張南琛] was a Wall Street financier who amassed one of the finest collections of vintage Chinese coins. He came from a very wealthy family. His grandfather [Zhāng Shí-míng 張石銘] founded the family fortune in salt and silk trading and started the family collection which also included antiques, art, and books. The Chang family amassed several important collections and collecting ran in the family's blood. The book looks at all aspects of Nelson's collecting: why and what he collected, the dealers he used, his favorite coins, etc. Starting 2013, the collection has been sold by Champion in both auction and private transactions. Our last Macau sale realized over US$20m with several records set for Chinese coins.
CG: Yes, Several of the coins were chopped and sold for astronomical prices including what is certainly the highest price ever paid for a chopmarked coin at US$612,000. Did Nelson collect chopmarked coins?
MC: Not directly. He always held the finest example of whatever coin he could. Money wasn't really an impediment. He would continually upgrade so the coins he held when he died at 93 were the finest he had found. Several of these were chopped. His father-inlaw, Hsi Turpin [Xí Dé-bǐng 席德柄] was the Central Mint Director and his father was the leading banker in China. The family had direct connections with the mints and various silver shops which the family controlled. His father, Zhāng Shū-xún [張叔馴 , also known as Zhāng Nǎi-jì 張乃驥], was known as the "King of Ancient Coins".
CG: Did you know Nelson?
MC: Yes, I met him at his house in Palo Alto and we developed a relationship over the years. Bruce Smith was originally hired to document his collection in 1992. I met him in 2009-2010. He was involved in several of my projects including my work with the Bowker collection and my Top Chinese Coins book. I helped Nelson both buy coins for his collection and sell his collection after his passing. His collection was one of the greatest I have ever been associated with and it will be a long time before another collection of this caliber will come up for sale again. However, what sticks with me most from my association with Nelson Chang is his six rules of collecting. Notably, rule 6: "Deal with everyone in collecting circles with integrity and generosity." It's a rule all of us should live by.
CG: Another interesting collection was the Howard Bowker collection. Tell me about that. How did you get involved with the collection?
MC: Bruce Smith and I went to meet Ward Smith, the author of Chinese Banknotes, but he had passed away. His widow gave me all his files and through these we were able to locate Bowker's son. We found out that the son had passed away but his wife, Nancy Bowker, was still alive and her daughter replied to us. After meeting with the family I purchased all Howard Bowkers' old books and letters - 20 boxes in total. Howard Bowker was an important Chinese collector who lived in China in the early 20th century. He knew Kann, Woodward, and many of the important collectors in China at the time. He also amassed a very large library. The library included correspondence with Kann, Coole, Woodward, etc. and included the prices of coins sold privately in China in the early 20th century. With the family's help it took three years to scan and photograph all the coins and correspondence.
CG：What happened to the Bowker collection?
MC：The Bowker family donated most of it to several museums in China, Germany and the United States. About 300 coins went to the museum in Shanghai, 84 to Shenyang, 212 to Beijing, 300+ to the Smithsonian Institution [SI], which also got his stamp collection and letters, and over 6,000 to the Mortizburg Museum in Halle, Germany. The total collection was over 10,000 coins and over 8,000 of these were Chinese.
Champion Auction sold off some of the duplicates and donated the money to Howard Bowker Numismatic Fund. That money has funded eight projects in the past 5 years, including the Howard Bowker room at the Smithsonian. The Big Money exhibit will open June 8, 2022, just before the Baltimore show. It's an exhibit geared towards kids aged 6-12.
What is especially important about Howard Bowker was his excellent record keeping. He lived in China in the 1920s and 1930s and was a regular visitor to the Chinese Numismatic Society in Shanghai which was housed in the Royal Asiatic Society Building. His letters include price details, details of the most valuable Chinese coins, rubbings and over 50 years of correspondence with Kann, Coole, Ros, Woodward, and others. One thing that is very interesting is that before 1950 Chinese coins were the most valuable coins in the world.
CG: Finally, let's talk about your final book, Top Chinese Coins, 3rd edition.
MC: The 3rd edition of Top Chinese Coins is a list of the most important vintage Chinese coins as voted on in a survey we held of some of the most important people in Chinese coins. The book includes pictures of the finest known examples of the coins shown in enlarged, high resolution photos along with the history of the coin and pricing information going back to the Kann sale and even earlier in some cases.
CG: Why do you have 60 entries and not 100?
MC: Because 6 is a lucky number in Chinese.
CG: I notice a few of the coins, especially the Taiwanese ones, are chopped.
MC: Yes, most Old Man dollars and Ration dollars are found with chopmarks. Some of the chopmarked coins from the NC collection is in the book too.
CG: You spend a lot of time in China. In my experience the Chinese shun chopmarked coins. Are the Chinese starting to get interested in chopmarked coins?
MC: Yes, I've noticed an increase in interest in chopmarked coins, especially ink chops. Previously dealers would repair the chopmarks, now there are collectors who want them chopped. Grading companies like NGC often give grades to coins with ink chops higher than nonchopped coins. The most expensive ink chopped [lot #9 in the May 30, 2021 Champion sale] coin in the NC collection has an ink chop and is considered the finest known. The increasing prices also mean fewer repairs are being made. The coin business in China is booming. There are more auction houses, more sales through WeChat, and more investors.
CG: So what do you have planned for the future?
MC: I'm hoping the CCC will be able to have a meeting at the ANA World's Fair of Money this August in Chicago. I'll be there. I think you should make a presentation on chopmarks; it's been several years since your last talk.
CG: Sounds good. I'm going to try and make it. Thanks for talking to us today.
MC: You're welcome.